Embracing Autism: The Therapeutic Power of Art w/ Jackie Schuld - Part 1
Nov 21, 2023
Aubrey Baptista / Jackie Schuld
What if you had the chance to peer into the fascinating life of an art therapist who discovered her own autistic identity while guiding others through their repressed emotions? This is the unique story of Jackie Schuld, an art therapist with autism and ADHD, as she navigates the waters of private practice. Jackie specializes in late-identified autism, her journey to self-discovery is nothing short of inspiring. She opens up about her experiences as an intern that motivated her to establish a private practice and the startlingly low pay rate she was initially offered. Her story is a testament to perseverance and the courage to chart one's unique path.
Have you ever wondered about the power of art therapy and how it can influence our understanding of ourselves and the world? Jackie has the answers, and she shares them through her artistic books 'Grief is a Mess' and 'Making it Through Chemotherapy.' Hear her discuss her creative processes, the distinct messages each book carries, and the intersection of art therapy and autism. She also speaks about how art therapy can offer grounding and present-moment awareness. Join us as Jackie unveils her story of resilience, self-discovery, and the transformative power of therapy. Don't miss out on this captivating conversation that celebrates the unsung heroes among us.
What if you had the chance to peer into the fascinating life of an art therapist who discovered her own autistic identity while guiding others through their repressed emotions? This is the unique story of Jackie Schuld, an art therapist with autism and ADHD, as she navigates the waters of private practice. Jackie specializes in late-identified autism, her journey to self-discovery is nothing short of inspiring. She opens up about her experiences as an intern that motivated her to establish a private practice and the startlingly low pay rate she was initially offered. Her story is a testament to perseverance and the courage to chart one's unique path.
Have you ever wondered about the power of art therapy and how it can influence our understanding of ourselves and the world? Jackie has the answers, and she shares them through her artistic books 'Grief is a Mess' and 'Making it Through Chemotherapy.' Hear her discuss her creative processes, the distinct messages each book carries, and the intersection of art therapy and autism. She also speaks about how art therapy can offer grounding and present-moment awareness. Join us as Jackie unveils her story of resilience, self-discovery, and the transformative power of therapy. Don't miss out on this captivating conversation that celebrates the unsung heroes among us.
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Aubrey:
Welcome to Kindred Conversations, the show where we shine a light on local mental health professionals, who are the unsung heroes of our community. Join us as we delve into their journeys, strategies and the art of healing minds. Together, we'll break down stigmas and celebrate resilience. Today, I'm super excited to introduce our guest. It's Jackie Schuld, who is an autistic and ADHD art therapist in private practice. She specializes in late identified autism. She works with clients one week a month and leaves the remaining weeks for her creative endeavors, rest and overall enjoyment of life. I'm super excited to welcome Jackie because she's also a writer and I've been reading a lot of Jackie's work for pretty much the last year and really been inspired by your work, jackie, so it's really truly an honor to have you here today. Welcome.
Jackie:
Thank you, I'm excited.
Aubrey:
Yeah, so I've been reading your book Therapy, private Practice. I also read some of like your bios and things like that. So I'm excited like just tell us more about the fact that you kind of came right into private practice. You decided right away that you didn't want to go the insurance route, that you needed to do it differently. I mean, that's really brave and bold. And so I'm curious like what were some of the factors that played into some of those decisions and how has your journey gone so far?
Jackie:
Yeah, well, when I was in grad school, I had to do two different internships, because I did an art therapy one and a counseling one, and my second internship was with a small group practice, and so that really kind of helped me see more like what a private practice might look like. And I just realized like, oh, I could totally do this on my own. Like I hardly ever interacted with anyone there. I did all my notes, I did, like it was. It seemed like something I could do. And then, when I was preparing to graduate, they offered me a job, but the pay was going to be $30 per therapy hour, which was like when I did the math, it was just so low and it was. You know, there was no benefits, there was no nothing. So like it just seemed like your average professional.
Aubrey:
if you're working a 40 hour work week, like $30 an hour might actually be somewhat doable, but when you're doing clinical hours like you, can't count it on a 40 hour work week.
Jackie:
Exactly as well as like say that I did decide to see 40 hours of clients. I would that I would be. I can't do that, like emotionally, I would just be shot in a horrible therapist. So I so when they offered that pay rate and I tried to negotiate, they had offered maybe down the road we could raise you to 35. And I was like that is what I have to look forward to. And so that's when I started looking into a lot of my options, because I knew agency work was grueling. I heard that from enough therapists and I also at the time lived in Arizona and had heard that you could open a private practice as a graduate and just kind of started reading and researching and saw that it was possible and decided to go for it.
Aubrey:
Yeah, so you were kind of during your internships. Had you ever experienced like a larger number of clients during the week.
Jackie:
I mean, I was never working full-time, but there were days that I'd see seven or eight clients and in my internship, even though you know I was only doing maybe 15 to 20 hours a week. Even that was so tiring to me. So it also showed me that I have some energetic limitations and that, like I just couldn't seem to do what is like accepted as normal in the health, in the mental health field, as far as like a quote-unquote normal caseload.
Aubrey:
So was it this challenge, or was it other challenges before or after, that led you to discovering your own autistic identity?
Jackie:
I didn't know at the time that I was autistic. It was roughly a year later that I started piecing that together and I don't think it was my business that helped me to see that it was more just my life in general, that it was like it was kind of like why is everything so challenging, even though I'm doing everything I can to meet my needs as well. As I got a dog, I rescued or adopted a dog and had a complete and utter mouth down and I was like this shouldn't be this hard. And that's when my art therapist at the time asked if I had ever considered autism.
Aubrey:
So what were some of the signs for you that were sort of pointing towards maybe, maybe this is autism?
Jackie:
Well, at first, when the therapist suggested that, I was like I won't swear, but it was like are you kidding me? Like what I learned about autism in graduate school was very much so based on the medical model of like you can't make eye contact and you fidget all the time and and all these things that didn't fit me. And so then she suggested I read the book Divergent Mind, and that book talks about many different neuro types like autism, adhd and such. But it's the first time I'd seen an interior look like what it feels like, what kind of thoughts go through someone's mind, and that's when I started to see like oh, this kind of tracks for me. And then, of course, I ended up doing like a deep dive on autism and neurodiversity, affirming approaches to autism and that's what we do when we latch on to something that we find interesting.
Aubrey:
We're just gonna like now learn everything about that thing.
Jackie:
Exactly, and that is exactly what I did.
Aubrey:
Yeah, yeah. So how long ago was that?
Jackie:
now that you started Almost three years ago now, and so it's been both short and long at the same time. I guess meaning like it.
Aubrey:
I've just been so impressed because where I discovered you was on LinkedIn. I started my LinkedIn journey like a year ago. I got really involved in it really fast and got kind of inundated by coffee chats and people networking and cool stuff like that. But then at the same time it just was eating up so much of my schedule and my energetic needs were shifting and my caseloads were building up the whole time. Somewhere along the lines we ended up getting connected.
Aubrey:
I had done an art therapy challenge that then I stopped because I was getting burnt out doing all of these different things. Getting to read some of the stuff that you were putting out, I was both in awe of how systematic that you're able to get things to come out. You're always staying on top of producing articles and making sure that you have a presence, but also, at the same time, like writing a lot about taking care of your own needs and making sure that, energetically, that you're really protecting yourself and designing your practice around that, which I think is just to be admired in any business professional who is designing their business around their life, which I think is what we all aspire towards as business owners.
Jackie:
That was lovely to hear.
Aubrey:
I mean, it's just it's really cool to get to watch you work and to see what you're doing, and so you know, I'm just really honored to get to talk to you and get to hear more about. I mean, you have several books out now, so when you talk a little bit about like, which one did you do first what?
Jackie:
was that like?
Aubrey:
writing a book.
Jackie:
But before I go there, can I actually want to touch on something you said? Sure, because you mentioned like making sure I have a presence and things like that. And I want to say that I don't look at things that way, and when I approach things that way such as like, am I posting enough, am I this enough? Like I go insane and I mean that, like my ruminate, I lose track of myself and I just don't function well that way. And so really what I'm doing with my writing is I'm writing for me and exploring what I need to explore and things that interest me, and then I'm sharing those at a pace that feels sustainable for me.
Jackie:
So oftentimes, like I'm writing, some days I'll write nothing and some days I'll write like six essays, it just depends, but I never upload them right away. I sit down once a month and load all my essays for the month, and that way it's not about. You know, I'm not always thinking about like how can I do this, how can I do that? How do I get more presence? I'm just centering myself. Yeah, period, I guess.
Aubrey:
That's super helpful to know. So, like I'm, I always think in this way. I think in terms of, like, how people's calendars are structured. I don't know if you think about that.
Aubrey:
Yeah, and so I just think about your. You talked about doing like a one day every. Like you work with people once a month so that you can do other things like research, your own writing, self care, like you're really living the ideal little ideology of like self as instrument that we learn about in our therapy, so that one once a month you're working with people and then do you have it set up so that other things are also on like a once a month type basis?
Jackie:
Not necessarily, and really my seeing clients I see everybody within one week and that way I have all the other days of that month three. And I want to add that like that's what fits me right now, but that's not necessarily what fit me before or what will fit me in the future. And that's one thing I love about private practice that I can shift it as my own need shift, you know. And so, for example, right now I don't know why, but I'm just in like a prolific period where I wake up and I'm like, oh, my god, is it time to write and I'm so excited to write and I have so many book ideas and I'm painting and I'm not always like this. So I recognize like I need to make more time for this because it's like my soul is calling me to it and at the same time I don't want to depend on my writing and my art for income, because that just feels awful. I've done that.
Jackie:
And so I want to still be seeing clients and getting to do my creative work, and you had asked about my schedule. I like to have no plans on the days I don't see clients. Otherwise it's like it I pressure myself too much and I, weirdly enough, get so much more done when there's nothing on my schedule than if I was like okay, tomorrow you're gonna get these three things done.
Aubrey:
It's like that pathological demand avoidance, but it's your schedule yes, exactly.
Aubrey:
That's how I oftentimes feel about schedules and like I'm struggling because I listen to like a lot of coaches and people who they talk about waking up in the morning at a certain time and doing like a journaling prompt and then doing like exercise and, you know, making these certain habits and creating them on a daily basis so that you can, you know, be as productive as possible, and I just really struggle with that mentality because I'm both drawn towards it, like the structure of it, and feeling like things could just be that simple, but also, at the same time, like rebelling against it internally.
Aubrey:
So I'm just curious about that experience, for, you know, I I recently been on the same journey myself of I was diagnosed with ADHD, like when I turn 30 I'm 34 now and recently, you know, just through like my experience with working with a lot of kids with autism, seeing a lot of different variations of what it can look like and reading about a lot of experiences that people have like feeling oftentimes like an outsider and then kind of like I get to be like that, I'm just like I'm not even going to read anything. So I just recently read like unmasking autism. Anyway, I kind of ramble sometimes. So if there was anything on there, then you're welcome to. That's a very autistic thing. I think we're very excellent ramblers, but oftentimes we do pick up on things that are really interesting or like oh yeah, I like that idea.
Jackie:
So back to your original question that I diverted from about the books, because you had asked, I believe, like what, how I started or which one I started.
Aubrey:
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to know like what? How did you kind of dive into that?
Jackie:
because writing a book is a bit intimidating yes, well, my first book was published in 2015, so that was a while ago, but that started because my mom died from ovarian cancer and I was just wracked, I don't know, wracked with grief.
Jackie:
That's not maybe the right way to say it. I mean, the whole point was I couldn't make sense of the grief and everybody else seemed to have certain ways they wanted to grieve and it, so I started doing cartoons about that and eventually just turned those into a book called grief is a mess, and it's really about how messy grief was for me. And now, looking back at that book, I'm like, oh my god, that totally is the autistic take on grief, in terms of like, hey, it's taking me way longer to process this grief, and I'm looking at all components of it, like how does it affect my mind, how does it affect my body. But like I just, yeah, well, and I deep dived into grief in a way that other people in my life weren't and I didn't understand that. I was like, how, how are you not immersed in this?
Aubrey:
yeah, no, I wonder that all the time about how people understand social cues and social skills and how they're able to do these things without, like having spent their whole life learning about it like I have. Like I, I'm able to interact in a somewhat normal way because of all the skills that I've learned as a therapist.
Jackie:
So yes, yeah, one was gonna say, my one thing tying like our conversations together is you know, we've been talking a bit about pathological demand avoidance and time spaciousness versus like structured goals. And my second book, called making it through chemotherapy, was really about watching my mom go through six years of chemo, but I went. It's a really good example of like I was like, okay, you've made a book, do a second book and really really pressured myself and had deadlines and, quite frankly, that book just isn't as good. I can like see it so clearly now and um, so I I've taken that lesson as I pursue future books like so how do you judge that it's not as good?
Aubrey:
because, like from an art therapy perspective, we oftentimes say like something's not like good or bad. So what's from your stance, saying that it's not good?
Jackie:
um, I for one don't think like the message is as clear or as open as I would like it to be. Like grief is a mess was like hey, it's messy, let's be kind to ourselves and others like I totally stand behind that, whereas making it through chemo it's not really quick. Clear where I'm going with it. And it was also different because it wasn't my first hand experience. Yes, I watched it, but I didn't personally experience it. So I also saw the difference in like what I chose to create cartoons about and such. I think it would have been a better book if I had just stuck to like what it's like to be alongside someone doing chemo.
Aubrey:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because that was your own lived experience and you're finding as an artist now. Your best work is when it's centered on your own experience. Yes, exactly and that one was a little bit more from an observational perspective, which was not as effective.
Jackie:
Yes, and I think just didn't get the art to quite resonate in the same way for people.
Aubrey:
Gotcha, you're a great illustrator. I mean, I'm a little bit like it's cool to get to see some of the ways that you portray things and the, the imagery that you use, and I wonder sometimes like how you came up across like those skills. Um, because for me, like I've sort of abandoned a lot of times I abandoned form because I'm I just can't quite Pull together the elements in the way that I want to. So I'm curious about that for you, just like it seems like you're able to generate images that are really effective.
Jackie:
Yeah, I'd say in that period of my life I was one I've always made Cartoon books as like gifts for people. It's just something I've always loved doing. And that's actually how grief is a mess started I had made cartoons for my mom about what she was going through and so and I will say, like making cartoons About grief or chemo is a very different process than how I do art now. Like making those cartoons in the past I really did have to sit down intentionally, think and find like a reference image of an animal and then Make it as expressive as it was like a process, and sometimes I had like forced myself to sit down and do it, whereas the art I make now is Way more messy and I do abstract and I'm just I don't have the desire to sit down and do those same kind of illustrations now. Yeah, I can, I can.
Aubrey:
I can totally relate to that. Yeah, I did for the first time. I did a few paint pours this weekend and that was a really interesting process. So that's like.
Jackie:
I recently got into Ink with a bamboo stick and it's. It's also kind of a little messy and unpredictable and it's so fun. Do you blow it? No, oh, I should think about that. No, but I should. It's just you just, okay, stick in the ink and then so sometimes you go like a drop of ink, sometimes it's thicker or lighter, and I like that Variability. That's uncontrollable.
Aubrey:
I realized how sensory and how like this is why they tell us always to make our own art, because you forget until you Use it, like how grounding it is and how much it pulls you into the present moment. Oh, that's a really good point.
Jackie:
Yeah, I like it's funny, like sometimes you do things and you're you don't like sit back and think about them. Yeah, you're just like I like doing this. Yeah, but that's my analytical mind.
Aubrey:
Right, I'm always thinking about the, the impact that this, that has anything. That that's what makes us great therapists, right, when we're always thinking about how these things are impacting our clients and how we can bring more value to the work that we're doing, right?
Jackie:
Yeah, well, even yesterday I was um playing with, uh, some like jewels, like stick on jewels I'm not sure what that is, I'm just gonna try and flip on jewels. And then I was like, oh my god, this could be so fun for clients.
Aubrey:
Yeah, I've actually brought some of those into my therapy work. Um, with one of my kids at one point was like the the stick on jewel things. But then we were working through some frustration points and getting them to work. So, um, we do need to break. We're going to be back next week for another episode with Jackie Jackie where can? Listeners learn more about you.
Jackie:
On my website is the best place, because I link to everything else I do there and so that's just my name likejackieshieldcom.
Aubrey:
And there'll be more links and information in the bio section of this page For those of you who are listening. Find out more information about this show. Kindred Conversations with Aubrey Baptista on bizradious Thanks.