Embracing Autism: The Therapeutic Power of Art w/ Jackie Schuld - Part 2

Ready to discover how an autistic and ADHD art therapist blazes her trail? Our riveting discussion with Jackie Schult offers fresh perspectives on the art of healing and the significance of late-identified autism. Jackie's authenticity shines through as she shares her journey of balancing her private practice with creative pursuits, and her personal life. She opens up about connecting with clients through her writings on Medium, the insight into her fun letter sprinkled with glimpses of her latest art supplies, life experiences and more. The conversation also embraces the critical distinction between therapy and coaching, and how therapists themselves can benefit from being clients. 

We navigate through Jackie's experiences of living with autism, the importance of normalizing the term "autistic," and the challenges around comorbidity and misdiagnosis. We delve into some serious issues like the prevalence of borderline personality disorder misdiagnosis in autistic individuals, and the need for a neurodiversity-affirming lens in autism assessment. Jackie bravely addresses the issue of lateral violence and policing within the neurodiverse community, emphasizing the need for greater empathy and understanding. We also explore Jackie's website, jackieschult.com, a treasure trove of resources, self-diagnostic tools, and a channel for her to connect with fellow neurodiverse individuals. Make sure to tune in for this insightful conversation that celebrates resilience, authenticity and the beauty of diversity.

This program is brought to you by:
Kindred Art Therapy
Visit https://www.arttherapync.com/ to schedule a free consultation.
- and -
Alynee Davis, PLLC
Visit https://alynnedavis.com/ to connect.
Alynne is a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and Coach.

Be sure to visit BizRadio.US to discover hundreds more engaging conversations, local events and more.

Transcript

Aubrey: 1:00

Welcome to Kindred Conversations, the show where we shine a light on local mental health professionals, who are the unsung heroes of our community. Join us as we delve into their journeys, strategies and the art of healing minds. Together, we'll break down stigmas and celebrate resilience. Today I have on for part two Jackie Schult, who is an autistic and ADHD art therapist. In private practice she specializes in late identified autism. She works with clients one week a month and leaves the remaining weeks for her creative endeavors, rest and overall enjoyment of life. If you guys are interested in this episode, make sure to check out part one, where we talk about all different things in her private practice what it's like to be an autistic art therapist, our energetic needs, things like that. So if you like this one, make sure you check out part one. Welcome back, jackie. How are you doing?

Jackie: 1:52

Good, I'm so excited to be back because I felt like our last conversation was like we could have kept going for a long time.

Aubrey: 2:00

Yeah, yeah, and you know it's exciting. Just to recap, I've known about you for a long time. This is our first time actually getting to talk. But you know we have a lot in common with both being art therapists, both being late identified on like the neurodivergent spectrum of things, and trying to just figure out how to make all of these different pieces work in our business life, in our home life, all of those things. So it's cool to get to meet somebody who's you know doing the things that you're doing and the way that you're doing them. It was really insightful to hear just like that you don't necessarily plan and schedule things like you just work with the way that your brain works.

Jackie: 2:44

Yes, and like where my energy and enthusiasm is.

Aubrey: 2:48

Yeah, yeah, so like when you like, if you go on your website, you have a fun letter.

Jackie: 2:54

Yeah, yeah.

Aubrey: 2:57

Yeah, and when you, when I, when I heard back from you, you were like you're like, yeah, that'll be fun. I was like this just sounds so authentic. It's really. It's great to be able to connect with you.

Jackie: 3:13

Thank you. And it's funny you mentioned the fun letter, because for the longest time I was pressuring myself like, oh, you should be making a newsletter and everything about it was just like I don't want to. But I forget what sparked it. But suddenly I was like why don't I just do it about things I find fun? And that makes it feel one real, because I don't want to just like send a newsletter out. It's all about I don't know, some like crappy form of marketing or hey, look at me, I. I want it instead to be like about connecting and sharing who I am. And that's where, like, I was like, oh, fun.

Aubrey: 4:01

Well it what kind of things to put out on your phone letter? I'm just curious.

Jackie: 4:07

Oh yeah, it's just. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I tried this new art supply, I love it. Other times I do share, like podcasts I've done. Or I also say like, oh, I tried going to this new place, that was cool. Sometimes I'm a little cheeky and I'm like I took a nap, that was great, things like that.

Aubrey: 4:27

And who's usually getting your fun letter. I know this buddy who visits your site and subscribes.

Jackie: 4:33

Pretty much, but I think most people find it through my writing on medium because at the end of my medium articles I invite people to subscribe. So you think I have. I don't know, I try not to look too often, but like 800 subscribers, yeah, that's pretty good. I don't know if they're reading it, but some people are. Some people email me.

Aubrey: 4:55

Yeah, yeah, did they do the people that read. So nowadays, are you mostly getting your clients through online activities like your writing and things like that, or are there other methods that you're getting clients?

Jackie: 5:11

almost all of my clients come through a medium, like when they complete paperwork. They say, like that's how they say they found me.

Aubrey: 5:19

That they were reading your work and that they were really interested in working with you from there. That's what I would think just from having read your medium account. Like and read like I actually got a medium app. Like you know how you have to pay for the app. Yeah, I wasn't gonna pay for the app and I actually like resisted it For a while. I would just like read like the first part of your article and then at one point my virtual assistant started uploading medium articles for me. I was like I guess I should get this app, but I'm so glad that I did, because now I can actually read through like the whole article.

Jackie: 5:59

Yeah, yeah, I also resisted even joining medium because I was like, no, I have my, I put my essays on my blog and my website. That's fine. But another therapist really spoke to me and was like, hey, this could be a good way to reach new people and so I tried it. And then I was like, oh snap, it works.

Aubrey: 6:26

So are you finding now that a good amount of your clients are also therapists or other similar mental health professionals, or so I set aside 20 times lots for clients, and of those right now to our therapists. Oh, that's just many less than I thought, yeah.

Jackie: 6:51

Well, and then I do also do business consultations, which is different than having a therapy client.

Aubrey: 6:58

Right. So do you do a separate? Do you have a separate business entity for that, or is it all under the same wing?

Jackie: 7:05

It's all under, like my Jackie Shold LLC, okay, but I make it very clear in all my paperwork and things that like this is a consultation, it is not therapy.

Aubrey: 7:17

Yeah, it's different in different states, and in North Carolina, where I'm at, we go through our board to get our PLLC and so for actually doing like a coaching wing, they discourage you from using your PLLC and opening up a separate LLC for that, so it's extra hoop to jump through.

Jackie: 7:38

Woohoo, yeah, no, that makes sense. That would be. I get why they require that, and I also get why that's annoying.

Aubrey: 7:46

Yeah, yeah, both things can be true, right, yes, yeah, so, okay. So I'm confused because you were in Arizona and now you're in, in wait, new Jersey. I'm in New Jersey, okay, and you got married, is that right?

Jackie: 8:03

I did Well. I'm in this weird state where we got married in the US, but next month we're getting married in India, Because my husband's Indian.

Aubrey: 8:14

Okay, so they planned the wedding for like a month later in India, so you guys could like do two celebrations, was that?

Jackie: 8:21

Well, and to do all the Hindu rituals and such yeah Cause their weddings are long there right, oh yeah, yeah, but luckily we've shortened it to just three days.

Aubrey: 8:32

So how long are you going to be in India?

Jackie: 8:35

Three weeks.

Aubrey: 8:36

Ooh, have you ever been like that far away?

Jackie: 8:39

before. Oh yeah, I've lived abroad many times as well, as I went to India last year for my sister-in-law's wedding.

Aubrey: 8:47

Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, do you like things like that, like a sense of adventure and just like going to different places?

Jackie: 8:55

It varies Like, yes, sometimes I really crave it and other times I'm like, oh, I just want to be home.

Aubrey: 9:07

I remember the essay that you wrote where you were talking about like loving being with your sister but at the same time, just feeling like energetically drained and off of your routines, and I forget what the that might have been one that I didn't get to read the conclusion on.

Jackie: 9:24

Yeah, no, I just think it's a lived reality, that it's like okay, I enjoy this. In that essay I was talking about my sister coming to visit me for like five days. But after another I don't know, after maybe three days, I was like okay, I need to rest time to go.

Aubrey: 9:44

Yeah, yeah, and so has she kind of gotten used to that kind of thing with you.

Jackie: 9:50

Yes, and she's very. We talk openly about it and she's very similar as well, where I mean we joke around about her being grumpy. We're like, oh my God, take a nap, Go, take a nap.

Aubrey: 10:06

Is she also autistic?

Jackie: 10:09

She doesn't have a use any labels at this time, but we have our suspicions.

Aubrey: 10:15

Okay, yeah, no, I know, you know there's just a high rate in families of family members also being just within some neurodivergent spectrum. And yeah, it's just, it's sometimes interesting to see how that affects us and families. And you notice, or I don't know if you've seen this, but I've seen a lot of family conflict in neurodivergent families. So as I'm discovering all of this information, I'm just deep diving more and more and realizing how much need there is for support in these things. It can sometimes feel really overwhelming.

Jackie: 10:55

Yeah, and, like you know, just because you learn your autistic doesn't mean the rest of your family members are ready to learn that about themselves. I mean, statistically right, there's going to be other members in our family yeah, most likely that are.

Aubrey: 11:17

Yeah, and then it's sort of a little bit like our coming out process, where when you start telling people, they're like no, you're not.

Jackie: 11:26

Right like oh my goodness. There's all sorts of reactions.

Aubrey: 11:30

Right and you're like, well, okay, now do I tell them, do I not tell them? How am I going to handle this? When I tell them, what do I talk about? Yeah, you know, it's like there's so many different things that you can talk about, but are you ready to talk about those things? Have you learned enough about them to speak coherently?

Jackie: 11:49

Yeah, I think I've. In telling people that were in my life before I knew I was autistic, I think there was only one person that had a response that I was like oh, that was fantastic. And that person, when I told her I was autistic, she said oh, that tracks. And I was like, wow, that's refreshing.

Jackie: 12:14

Yeah, it feels really good to be affirmed, right, yeah, and that I didn't have to like explain or just to my justify myself, and that I could actually be like wait, what do you mean? Tell me, how does it track?

Aubrey: 12:27

Yeah, it helps you to like feel closer to them at that point, and then they can be a little bit like they're willing to be more honest with you. It says, though, like, if you were to label yourself autistic, it's like saying how I loved, did you read unmasking autism? I did yeah. So, like she talks about fat people and how this is an identity that, like, should not be shamed she, they, they, them in prices, they and how, like it just makes me think about how, like, when you say, oh well, that person is fat, like how people automatically are, like, oh my god, you're insulting them.

Jackie: 13:06

I am always talking about that. I'm describing someone or like my own and I'll say fat and everyone's like horrified. I'm like fat's a neutral term, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Aubrey: 13:18

Yeah, like it makes you wonder sometimes. Like, okay, I have, I have this amount of fat on my body. It's more than what the norm is. Okay, yeah, I fall in that that realm.

Jackie: 13:29

Yeah, like how else are we going to talk about this? Or, like you know, I'm just got married and bought to get married again. That's so funny. But you know what I'm and you know there's so much focus on your body, size and how you look and all these things for big events like this, and I'm really practicing like can I just embrace my body as it is, yeah, and not like feel like I have to diet or lose weight or you know something of that nature.

Aubrey: 14:01

But I was equating that also to like this I this idea that by calling somebody autistic, that you're calling them an offensive term, that that is. That's the part that like when I see people's reaction, I'm almost like braced for it, and then I'm like, okay. I also want to normalize the fact that this is okay, that this is actually a lot more normal than you think, and there's a lot of people out in the world who are navigating how to live like this, and the more that people can recognize it, the better. That we are about like being able to help one another.

Jackie: 14:34

Yeah, well, and it's. It's a weird line to walk, though, because yes, it's. It's good to be autistic and I still want people to acknowledge the challenges and like, see that like, for instance, the side most people see of me is my writing, and they're not there when I'm struggling or when I'm crying about something or worked up, and so on the surface, you know, this comes down to that conversation about, like, high support needs, low support. Me it's high functioning, low functioning, and why I don't like those labels? Because that suggests that we're in one place consistently and that's just simply not true. Sometimes I am low functioning and I have high support means.

Aubrey: 15:30

It just depends on where you're at energetically Exactly, and that is the part that you're not always able to Put your finger on. I think you might have written about this topic at one point, but it's something that I'm navigating a little bit more of, both professionally and Some what it just comes up like with people in general, about Some of the trends and the similarities and differences between, like bipolar and ADHD and the energetic differences there. Do you think or I don't know if you've done much research on this or like how much there is like comorbidity versus like misdiagnosis?

Jackie: 16:14

Yeah, I was yeah. When you brought that up, I was like Personality disorder I nine times out of ten.

Aubrey: 16:23

I'm looking at that with a side eye, like that's oftentimes like an autism Misdiagnosis.

Jackie: 16:30

I was actually diagnosed as borderline personality disorder in the past.

Aubrey: 16:35

Yeah, I had a to yeah, yeah, same thing. What was that like at the time?

Jackie: 16:43

It's very stigmatizing right, everyone sees it as so negative. I mean, for one, the psychiatrist only spent 20 minutes with me and gave me that diagnosis, which I think, yeah, that's a whole another tangent I don't need to go off on right now but I swear when I let my so.

Aubrey: 17:00

I had told my, my couples counselor at one point that I had thought at a certain point that I might have had borderline personality disorder, and he kind of like, was like, said to my husband he's like, he's like, oh man Like you know, like, like, responded to that and I could tell from like that moment forward that in our relationship that he was always going to sort of dismiss or mitigate.

Aubrey: 17:29

And that's such an opposite approach of what we're trying to do with autism, where, you know, we've been trying to talk about our needs for so long and nobody's helping us navigate them, they're just dismissing them and avoiding them, which is all of what that borderline personality disorder thing is right, it's like we're, we're, we have high needs in an environment that can't provide them for us, and so then we're told that they're not there when it Realistically they really are.

Jackie: 17:57

Yeah, well, and like at that time in my life my mom had also just died and I had just Religiously deconstructed, meaning I left the faith I grew up in, and so there was a lot going on for me, and like I really wish that assessors would take in to account life events as well when they're yeah, throwing around diagnoses.

Aubrey: 18:27

Do you think that that would have changed your assessment as being diagnosed with autism, or do you think that that would have like? What difference would that make for you?

Jackie: 18:40

Like if they had known that and factored that in, no, there's no way they would have caught. I was autistic in a 20 minute meeting, yeah, and like that facility in particular. I say facility because it was like a government healthcare kind of thing but I think, yeah, it would have had to be in the context of someone who has a neurodiversity affirming lens, who actually takes time Right, like yeah, good luck.

Jackie: 19:15

I mean, we're out there, you exist, but at yeah, at the time, of course, I wasn't even looking for that, because that wasn't on my radar.

Aubrey: 19:25

We do exist. I have seen and I'm reaching out and finding more people who fall within that, but I also follow a lot of boards where people are noticing. This is the part where we kind of get into a slippery slope a little bit, where we're policing each other around the terminology that we're using, and it can feel very shaming at times. There can be a lot of groups speak and so I'm oftentimes careful about a lot of all or nothing thinking that comes out of our communities.

Jackie: 19:57

Yeah, I think I've seen quite a few essays about lateral violence and policing within therapists communities.

Aubrey: 20:07

Oh, that's a really interesting topic. I'm like ooh, let's like all of these topics, jackie, because we can't talk about them right now.

Jackie: 20:15

We're running out of time. I know, I know I shouldn't throw something out there like that. Here, look at this interesting thing, move on.

Aubrey: 20:26

Well, it's been really great getting to talk to you, having you on the show here. Where can listeners find out more information about you?

Jackie: 20:33

The best way is through my website. And then also, if you wanna check out my writing, it's on medium.

Aubrey: 20:39

Yeah, your website is Jackie Schult S-C-H-U-L-D. It's German. Yes, yeah, jackieschultcom, and it's really beautiful. It's got all kinds of like sparkly types of things on the website. It's really cool. Thank you, yeah, so there's lots of resources on there for autism and different types of self-diagnostic tools articles, blog posts, things like that. So go ahead and check that out. And if you guys wanna learn more about me and my show this is Kindred Conversations with Aubrey Baptista Go ahead on bizradious. Be sure to like and subscribe.